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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 589
Location: Aux Arcs
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 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | ...
Sure it was open for discussion, but not rejection..if we cant come to the conclusion first of all, that its Jesus words..then we statr the discussion on the wrong foot..if there are some who agree with Jesus words..lets discuss it.. |
Some of the words you quoted were the words attributed to Jesus.
Some were not.
And if we focus on the words attributed to Jesus, then the discussion can be about whether the only interpretation of those words is this "TULIP" notion.
I cannot see where anyone at the time of Jesus ever used the acronym, TULIP, so the simple answer to your question is, no.
The doctrine of TULIP was never mentioned by Jesus, Paul, James, Mark, Luke, John or anyone else.
Calvin or one of his followers, came up with the acronym, it seems, to define his interpretation of The Word.
No, I do not believe that these words of Jesus which you quote prove, undeniably, that the doctrine you call TULIP was taught by Jesus.
Now we have a basis for discussion.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: | | beloved57 wrote: | ...
Sure it was open for discussion, but not rejection..if we cant come to the conclusion first of all, that its Jesus words..then we statr the discussion on the wrong foot..if there are some who agree with Jesus words..lets discuss it.. |
Some of the words you quoted were the words attributed to Jesus.
Some were not.
And if we focus on the words attributed to Jesus, then the discussion can be about whether the only interpretation of those words is this "TULIP" notion.
I cannot see where anyone at the time of Jesus ever used the acronym, TULIP, so the simple answer to your question is, no.
The doctrine of TULIP was never mentioned by Jesus, Paul, James, Mark, Luke, John or anyone else.
Calvin or one of his followers, came up with the acronym, it seems, to define his interpretation of The Word.
No, I do not believe that these words of Jesus which you quote prove, undeniably, that the doctrine you call TULIP was taught by Jesus.
Now we have a basis for discussion. |
what your problem is, you are decieved into looking for the literal word tulip, thats a mistake, its not the literal word tulip Jesus spake, its what those words mean and the principles of truth they stand for..
Thats what Jesus taught.. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 589
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | | beloved57 wrote: | ...
Sure it was open for discussion, but not rejection..if we cant come to the conclusion first of all, that its Jesus words..then we statr the discussion on the wrong foot..if there are some who agree with Jesus words..lets discuss it.. |
Some of the words you quoted were the words attributed to Jesus.
Some were not.
And if we focus on the words attributed to Jesus, then the discussion can be about whether the only interpretation of those words is this "TULIP" notion.
I cannot see where anyone at the time of Jesus ever used the acronym, TULIP, so the simple answer to your question is, no.
The doctrine of TULIP was never mentioned by Jesus, Paul, James, Mark, Luke, John or anyone else.
Calvin or one of his followers, came up with the acronym, it seems, to define his interpretation of The Word.
No, I do not believe that these words of Jesus which you quote prove, undeniably, that the doctrine you call TULIP was taught by Jesus.
Now we have a basis for discussion. |
what your problem is, you are decieved into looking for the literal word tulip, thats a mistake, its not the literal word tulip Jesus spake, its what those words mean and the principles of truth they stand for..
Thats what Jesus taught.. |
OK.
uncle!
you win.
bye.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
--------------------
I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 822
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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beloved57,
Did you really say that?
Scoffing at what Jesus taught is probably all you can do..proves you are not one of his..
And you think that is a Spirit motivated heart condition. That is unbelievable.
ShardikSon
beloved57 just doesn't know any better.
JB |
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Croref
Little Goldfish
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | | beloved57 wrote: | ...
Sure it was open for discussion, but not rejection..if we cant come to the conclusion first of all, that its Jesus words..then we statr the discussion on the wrong foot..if there are some who agree with Jesus words..lets discuss it.. |
Some of the words you quoted were the words attributed to Jesus.
Some were not.
And if we focus on the words attributed to Jesus, then the discussion can be about whether the only interpretation of those words is this "TULIP" notion.
I cannot see where anyone at the time of Jesus ever used the acronym, TULIP, so the simple answer to your question is, no.
The doctrine of TULIP was never mentioned by Jesus, Paul, James, Mark, Luke, John or anyone else.
Calvin or one of his followers, came up with the acronym, it seems, to define his interpretation of The Word.
No, I do not believe that these words of Jesus which you quote prove, undeniably, that the doctrine you call TULIP was taught by Jesus.
Now we have a basis for discussion. |
what your problem is, you are decieved into looking for the literal word tulip, thats a mistake, its not the literal word tulip Jesus spake, its what those words mean and the principles of truth they stand for..
Thats what Jesus taught.. |
WRONG!! The argument here is about what YOU think they mean, PERIOD! YOUR interpretation of them STINKS!! End of argument and I hope end of thread! |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | WRONG!! The argument here is about what YOU think they mean, PERIOD! YOUR interpretation of them STINKS!! End of argument and I hope end of thread! |
Plain truth is, you reject and despise Jesus christ words.. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Did Jesus teach Tulip ? |
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| beloved57 wrote: | The acronym Tulip has been given a horrible reputation and being taught that its a man made doctrine, by one named John Calvin.
But what I want to examine briefly is if Jesus christ himself taught these truthes of tulip..
T=Total Depravity, this describes mans corrupt nature and inability to please God or come to him [Jesus christ] in faith [believe] on him..
Jesus says in jn 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
The word can is the greek word dunimai and means:
to be able, have power whether by virtue of one's own ability and resources, or of a state of mind, or through favourable circumstances, or by permission of law or custom
2) to be able to do something
3) to be capable, strong and powerful
So Jesus affirms mans inability to come to him in belief..
Jn 6:
But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
Jesus said in Jn 12:
37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
man cannot believe in christ, they have not the ability..
man loves sin and darkness Jesus said jn 3:
19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
because of this, what we are by nature, the flesh, Jesus says this jn 3:
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
without newbirth Jesus says we are Just flesh..
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
being in the flesh man cannot please God..rom 8:
8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Next, U for unconditional election lk at jn 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out
17:
2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
The elect were given to christ in election before the world began 2 tim 1:
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
eph 1:
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
We were in him because God gave us to him as a spiritual seed. isa 53:
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Jesus said jn15:
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
and matt 22:
14For many are called, but few are chosen.
Next Limited or particular atonement ? Jesus says jn 10:
11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
jn 17:
19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
matt 15:
24But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
matt 26:
28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Many of his sermons conveyed the Limited or restricted nature of His saving healing Ministry..lk 4:
24And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.
25But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.
27And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
28And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,
Next the I for irresistable grace or effectual call..jn 12:
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
men is not in the original, supplied by the translators..so it would read, will draw all to me..what all ? Jn 6:
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
all the elect, all them of both jew and greek who was given to him..jn 12:
20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
jn 10:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
The P as to perseverance or preservation of the sheep or saints Jn 10:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
jn 6:
44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
So there you have it..Jesus taught these truthes of Tulip, even before calvin was born..
so I reject the slander of those who say that tulip is not taugt in the bible, that Jesus did not teach it..
This will no doubt be attacked by the haters of truth, but nevertheless, truth will be established.. |
Yup. Jesus taught TULIP. He said; "No one is good but God alone." "My sheep never follow a stranger". "Many are invited but few are chosen. "You did not choose me, I chose you." Those verses pretty much cover TULIP. 
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | ShardikSon wrote: | | beloved57 wrote: | ...
Sure it was open for discussion, but not rejection..if we cant come to the conclusion first of all, that its Jesus words..then we statr the discussion on the wrong foot..if there are some who agree with Jesus words..lets discuss it.. |
Some of the words you quoted were the words attributed to Jesus.
Some were not.
And if we focus on the words attributed to Jesus, then the discussion can be about whether the only interpretation of those words is this "TULIP" notion.
I cannot see where anyone at the time of Jesus ever used the acronym, TULIP, so the simple answer to your question is, no.
The doctrine of TULIP was never mentioned by Jesus, Paul, James, Mark, Luke, John or anyone else.
Calvin or one of his followers, came up with the acronym, it seems, to define his interpretation of The Word.
No, I do not believe that these words of Jesus which you quote prove, undeniably, that the doctrine you call TULIP was taught by Jesus.
Now we have a basis for discussion. |
what your problem is, you are decieved into looking for the literal word tulip, thats a mistake, its not the literal word tulip Jesus spake, its what those words mean and the principles of truth they stand for..
Thats what Jesus taught.. |
TULIP is short for the Five Points of Calvinism.
1) Total depravity
2) Unconditional election
3) Limited atonement
4) Irresistible grace
5) Perseverance of the saints
It comes down to who believes in Calvinism and who don't.
Opponents of Calvinism say that's not what Jesus said and taught. Adherants of Calvinism say that's what Jesus meant to say and teach.
I'd prefer to take the position of what Jesus actually said and taught. |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It comes down to who believes in Calvinism and who don't. |
actually jesus taught these truthes before calvin was born..your mistake is, that you have been fooled into thinking calvin is the author of these truthes but he is not, the devil caused men to use that terminology to prejudice the minds of men against christ words..these are really christ words, thats why i started the OP to show this.. |
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JB
Tiger
Joined: 16 Feb 2008
Posts: 822
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:34 am Post subject: |
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beloved57,
So 57 are you saying that if a person doesn't believe TULIP theology as you presented it they aren't saved?
JB |
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Croref
Little Goldfish
Joined: 31 Aug 2008
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | Quote: | | It comes down to who believes in Calvinism and who don't. |
actually jesus taught these truthes before calvin was born..your mistake is, that you have been fooled into thinking calvin is the author of these truthes but he is not, the devil caused men to use that terminology to prejudice the minds of men against christ words..these are really christ words, thats why i started the OP to show this.. |
You failed |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| Croref wrote: | | beloved57 wrote: | | Quote: | | It comes down to who believes in Calvinism and who don't. |
actually jesus taught these truthes before calvin was born..your mistake is, that you have been fooled into thinking calvin is the author of these truthes but he is not, the devil caused men to use that terminology to prejudice the minds of men against christ words..these are really christ words, thats why i started the OP to show this.. |
You failed |
jn 8:
47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God. |
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james
Tiger
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 849
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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1 Sam 16:7 .....for the Lord seeth not as a man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.
1 Kings 8:39.....( for thou, EVEN THOU ONLY, knowest the hearts of all the children of men)
Just thought these scriptures fit here in this thread!!! |
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JonMarie
Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 699
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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4) Irresistible grace
Heb 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
verse 15 is a warning to not fail of the grace, in other words to not resist the grace of God. Why would we be warned of something that could not happen?
_________________
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Last edited by JonMarie on Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:01 pm Post subject: |
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| JonMarie wrote: | 4) Irresistible grace
Heb 12:14Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
verse 15 is a warning to not fail of the grace, in other words to not resist the grace of God. Why would we be warned of something that could not happen? |
It cant happen to the sheep..Jesus says plainly jn 10:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. |
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