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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6281
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | O.K. I’m using answers.com for these understandings:
Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.
So this is the definition of Theism and does not relate to me or what I’m trying to put across. But does it truly encompass the common Christian thought? |
Well yes.
Even belief in an impossible God is still theism. Especially because it's not like people realize they believe in an impossible God. Thus:
| Siam wrote: | Atheism:
1.Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2.The doctrine that there is no God or gods. |
Does not in any way apply.
We can keep going around in circles on this but you're simply mistaken about the terms. Call them wrong all you like, but to call them atheists is incorrect.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Siam
Bear Cub
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 646
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Siam wrote: | O.K. I’m using answers.com for these understandings:
Theism: Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.
So this is the definition of Theism and does not relate to me or what I’m trying to put across. But does it truly encompass the common Christian thought? |
Well yes.
Even belief in an impossible God is still theism. Especially because it's not like people realize they believe in an impossible God. Thus:
| Siam wrote: | Atheism:
1.Disbelief in or denial of the existence of God or gods.
2.The doctrine that there is no God or gods. |
Does not in any way apply.
We can keep going around in circles on this but you're simply mistaken about the terms. Call them wrong all you like, but to call them atheists is incorrect. |
Fair enough, I see your point.
I still think that it can apply in a small way...
I won't go into it because as close as I can get to the core of my thinking on this subject was in the last post.
What do you think (Gulp should I even ask this...  ) of the idea of evolving our loving potential to further the positive attributes of humanity.
Do you see value in this, or is it just airy fairy pie in the sky optimism.
Interested in your thoughts.
Be nice 
Siam.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6281
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Individuals don't evolve. Otherwise what you're describing is sort of a spiritual humanism.
And it's a neat idea and all but what is the basis for it other than "airy fairy pie in the sky optimism"?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Christianity is Atheism. |
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| Siam wrote: | When talking of Christianity as atheism, I am as a rule, talking about those whom believe that there worship of god is based upon an infallible book, “the Bible.”
When one approaches “Christianity” (or any religion for that matter) one must, as the “Bible” states, live by faith.
If they choose to actually try and prove this faith through the bible they must than accept, through honest study, that the bible itself is fallible.
If you immediately reject this comment as a non-truth, than you are actually in a state of denial and an atheist.
Why?
Because you have chosen to accept a non reality as truth in the same way that a dogmatic atheist will state his “truth” that when we die that’s it, no more us.
The atheist has reached this conclusion, usually, from some others belief, or lack of belief, in the power of this existence. But to prove this is impossible.
It is because of the possibility that there is more than we can know in this existence and that we are possibly more than the sum of this existence that one can then actually have a belief based on faith.
Luke 17-19Then he said to him, "Rise and go; your faith has made you well."
Christians who embrace Jesus from this reality, not needing to have there faith proven by written word, are the ones who can then let go of any prejudice and truly love there neighbor as they love them selves.
Those that choose to fanatically (anyone who ignores truth) believe that the bible is the word of God are the ones who are becoming deceived through there own belief.
They can then not see how there belief is leaving them at fault and in complete contradiction of what God truly is.
LOVE.
For the dogmatic Christian sees no fault in the annihilation of a non-Christian regime. For the bible will substantiate and bless a need for war against non-believes.
The Dogmatist will impose a will based on falsehood and a righteousness built on a foundation of non truth, to bring others, whom have trusted them, to this belief based
Lie.
To impose upon “God” an absolute belief in a man savor deity, that has given to us a book of “clues” based on impossible happenings, ancient mythology and secular belief, that has then lead the world to wage war, murder, lie, cheat, subvert, hurt and make a place for fakers and egotistical department heads, is to actually live in an atheistic (if not demonic) realm.
For you is now the perverted messenger of a non-truth. One that is not just a personal perversion, but through self imposed ignorance, one that can stop others from finding there own personal truth.
The rendering of your belief as right and others as wrong has made you the atheist. Because your belief in God is actually now less provable than an atheist belief in the non-existence of God.
Do you understand this?
When faced with an undeniable truth, the bible is fallible, you are rejecting God through your own ignorance.
Siam. |
Sorry but your arguments contradict themselves. Since you come from the presupposition that the bible isn't true, then you've simply declared it isn't true because you say so.
The reason that it takes faith to believe the bible isn't because the bible isn't true. It's because "For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."
God has allowed Satan to blind our eyes to the truth of the bible as he explains in Romans 1:24 so that we have to turn to Him to reveal the truth to us. It has nothing to do with the bible being untrue.
But atheists have to make up their own history to deny the truth of the bible. that means that their beliefs come from their imaginations which thus makes their beliefs imaginary. 
_________________
Blessings in Christ,
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Daystar
Puppy
Joined: 10 May 2008
Posts: 218
Location: Midwest US
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Daystar - God isn't omnipresent. He has a fixed position, namely; Heaven.
Siam - Oh been there have we, how was it, you’ll have to give me the coordinates and I’ll put it in my G.P.S. |
I know that you don't think that the Bible is any authority on God's established place of dwelling, ([/b]1 Ki 8:39, 43, 49[/b] Our Father in the heavens, (Mt 6:9) Father who is in heaven, (Mt 12:50) but should I take your word over it? I don't know where you get your information, but I look to the Bible.
| Quote: | Daystar - It wouldn't have been necessary for Solomon to build the temple where God would reside among men if he were already there.
Siam - Oh silly me…Solomon’s Temple.
Historical evidence of King Solomon, independent of the biblical accounts, is scarce. Nothing indisputably of Solomon's reign has been found. Lets move on. |
So that is where you get your information. History! I was afraid of that. Josephus on Solomon? Jewish Antiquities, VIII, 186 [vii, 3]. It was not long ago that there was no historical account of Belshazzar, and then there was.
| Quote: | Daystar - God wouldn't have had to ask Adam, or Cain what they had done if he were omnipresent.
Siam - Good point, God really is stupid. Oh and what did Cain do that annoyed god; Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the LORD. Naughty, naughty Cain. |
It had nothing to do with the soil because later such sacrifices were incorporated by Jehovah himself. Abel brought the firstfruits of his labor where as Cain only picked up what was lieng around on the ground. Cain's heart was already not in the right place.
You say you are not an atheist and then you say God is stupid and you completely overlooked any truth regarding Cain?
| Saim wrote: | | Sodom and Gomorrah have been used as metaphors for sinfulness and sexual deviation. The story has therefore given rise to words in several languages, including the English word "sodomy", a term used today predominantly in law (derived from traditional Christian usage) to describe non-vaginal intercourse, as well as bestiality. (But of course you don't believe this do you.) |
The English word pharmacy comes from the Greek pharmakia which is translated spiritism, the Greek pneuma brings pneumonia and is translated as spirit, what is your point? The word sodomy comes from the practices of the Sodomites. That doesn't mean it was only a metaphore.
If you want to decide what is literal and figurative in the Bible you have to know a great deal more than your supposition allows.
| Saim wrote: | | But if you want your God to be a killer of woman and children, you go for it. |
You would rather overlook the truth? You would rather make believe God is in heaven waiting to have tea with you and you miss the mark.
| Saim wrote: | ... you liberally quote the O.T. about where god resides (in temples, oh wait, in heaven) and use it to show angels helped kill woman and children so maybe than I can use it to show Gods omnipresentness.
Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Jeremiah 23:23,24
Am I a God at hand, saith the Lord, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord. |
It is interesting that you claim the Bible is figurative when you need it to be and literal when you need it to be without very much thought to either. Is that for the sake of argument or belief?
| Saim wrote: | And don’t even get me started on thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
So as you can see Daystar, your God is omnipresent and your belief is otherwise is redundant...
And you asked for an example that when I said it was impossible to prove that the God of the O.T. is literal I ask you, using information residing outside of the bible and sources not related to the bible for "Proof". |
I don't get you. You make no real sense. You believe in God but not the God of the Bible. I can't proove my god exists by the remarkable books of the Bible but you can proove your God? Without even being able to really define the word god.
| Saim wrote: | | It can’t be done. Using 2000-3000 year old passages, truth does it not make. If this were true then Zeus and the Gods of Greek myth could also be true. |
While worshippers of Zeus were rubbing fecal matter and urine on wounds to heal them the true God was giving cleanliness laws that compare to today. Up until 100 years ago a doctor would go directly from the morgue to the birthing room without washing his hands, the Bible wouldn't approve. The Bible stated that the planet earth was round and hanging upon nothing thousands of years before science. The prophecy of Cyrus was given by name hundreds of years before Cyrus was born.
Lets see what you can do with Zeus. I'm fascinated!
| Saim wrote: | | And what, pray tell, have you got to base your belief on outside of the few select books that made it into the end result of Constantine’s bible. |
What would I need? What do you ask for?
| Quote: | Daystar - Dogstar?
Siam - Must have had your Dogmatic stance in my subconscious. |
Polemic pontificating doesn't become you.
| Quote: | Daystar - See ... this is how we seem to almost agree ... Most Xians don't know God….
Siam - Oh but you do, don’t you. :? |
In as much as it is possible for anyone to do so, yes. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6281
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Daystar wrote: | | I don't get you. You make no real sense. You believe in God but not the God of the Bible. I can't proove my god exists by the remarkable books of the Bible but you can proove your God? Without even being able to really define the word god. |
Think of it as one of the rationalist arguments for God, like the ontological argument. That's how I've interpreted Siam, at least.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ShardikSon
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 10 Jul 2008
Posts: 589
Location: Aux Arcs
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Daystar wrote: | | I don't get you. You make no real sense. You believe in God but not the God of the Bible. I can't proove my god exists by the remarkable books of the Bible but you can proove your God? Without even being able to really define the word god. |
Think of it as one of the rationalist arguments for God, like the ontological argument. That's how I've interpreted Siam, at least. |
Hmm.
I think that any god that COULD be proved by science and human logic would not be worthy of the name, God.
One of my favorite quotes:
"I know too much about science to not believe in God."
- anonymous.
_________________
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"Logic is a defined process for going wrong with confidence and certainty" - CF Kettering
“In prayer it is better to have a heart without words than words without a heart. “- Mohandas Gandhi
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I delight greatly in the LORD;
my soul rejoices in my God...
- Isaiah 61:10 (NIV) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8210
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ShardikSon wrote: |
I think that any god that COULD be proved by science and human logic would not be worthy of the name, God. |
Really? If God interacts with our Universe AT ALL, then in principle He is open to scientific investigation. And most people who believe in a personal God believe that He interacts with the Universe *all the time*.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Siam
Bear Cub
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 646
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:14 am Post subject: Re: Christianity is Atheism. |
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| Carico wrote: |
Sorry but your arguments contradict themselves. Since you come from the presupposition that the bible isn't true, then you've simply declared it isn't true because you say so.
The reason that it takes faith to believe the bible isn't because the bible isn't true. It's because "For the god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."
God has allowed Satan to blind our eyes to the truth of the bible as he explains in Romans 1:24 so that we have to turn to Him to reveal the truth to us. It has nothing to do with the bible being untrue.
But atheists have to make up their own history to deny the truth of the bible. that means that their beliefs come from their imaginations which thus makes their beliefs imaginary. |
Hi Carico;
You haven’t read any of my other posts have you?
My study of the bible is philosophical with a spiritual belief in a higher purpose for humanity.
When I look at the bible I have tried to see how it connects with other religions and spiritual beliefs in the belief that the true essence of any god is love.
If YOUR god has chosen to blind folks minds so that they can not find him than your god sucks, but “he” has done a fine job on my mind because I wouldn’t, couldn’t and never will believe in “your” concept of God.
As for a contradiction of terms, any contradiction that I have with the bible comes from ignorant folk like yourself believing that it is an infallible document from God.
Now you might never have heard of Constantine, the council of Nicea, the gospel of Q or of James, the Dead sea scrolls, carbon dating, dinosaurs, Aboriginals or any of the other things that make one look at the bible and wonder about it being “Gods literal book”. If that’s the case than at least you will learn stuff being on Bible-discussion.
If you are aware of these things but still choose to believe your own mind over the mind of reason than you are most likely a dogmatist (R:E: Atheist) who has forsaken reason for a belief.
Your choice!
As for quoting Romans 1:24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another???
All I can say is “What the @%#&*? is your issue.”
I’m a 42 year old married man with 4 kids who in the past 15 years of my life have tried (Even in the case of someone like you, for you need love most of all.) to see only love reflected in others. For you to imply that I am sexually impure and degrading my body with other people is twisted, retarded and offensive.
I actually believe that YOUR belief is inline with the verse prier to the one you quoted:
Romans 1:21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
I bet you even have some of the other dogmatist cringing.
Peace.
Siam.
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It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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Siam
Bear Cub
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 646
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:41 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Individuals don't evolve. Otherwise what you're describing is sort of a spiritual humanism.
And it's a neat idea and all but what is the basis for it other than "airy fairy pie in the sky optimism"? |
Hi ya Cowboy (I love your new avatar.)
Where do you glean all your terms from? You’re a walking thesaurus.
Spiritual humanist…mmm maybe.
My argument for humanity evolving in a more loving fashion is based on the potential of the mind.
From what I know of emotion and emotional gauges within ones psyche, If we choose to view the world from a perspective of a loving vibration, that I believe is inherent within us all, we find that we move into a space occupied by loving thoughts, kindness and peace.
As we reflect this love back to others, they in turn harbor fewer feelings of animosity or negative-ness.
This, as I’m sure you aware, is the back bone of the human potential movement.
I also like to delve into science (Some partial pseudo science, of which I’m not embarrassed.) and am intrigued by the positive and negative energies that permeate our existence.
I believe that if we choose to embrace the positive we build up an energy around us that becomes more conducive and attractive to like energies.
I then relate this back to the bible in the form it takes of good/evil, devil/god, sin/repentance etc.
I also believe, that as far as death is concerned, we have at our disposal a choice of two theories, we die…the end, or we continue on in some form of incarnation.
As we are born into this existence to a clean slate, all we truly have is the now.
I choose to live in the now reflecting (most of the time…) Love.
Yep…’bout it 
Siam.
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It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6281
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Siam wrote: | | Hi ya Cowboy (I love your new avatar.) |
Thanks! I made it a while back as a part of a music contest and I've used it other places so I figured I'd use it here
| Siam wrote: | | Where do you glean all your terms from? You’re a walking thesaurus. |
I read a lot as a kid
| Siam wrote: | | My argument for humanity evolving in a more loving fashion is based on the potential of the mind. |
Oh no you don't. If you dare trot out the "we only use 10% of our mind's potential!" nonsense ...
| Siam wrote: | From what I know of emotion and emotional gauges within ones psyche, If we choose to view the world from a perspective of a loving vibration, that I believe is inherent within us all, we find that we move into a space occupied by loving thoughts, kindness and peace.
As we reflect this love back to others, they in turn harbor fewer feelings of animosity or negative-ness. |
If. Where did you get the idea? What is it based on?
It's not enough to go "wouldn't it be nice if"
| Siam wrote: | | This, as I’m sure you aware, is the back bone of the human potential movement. |
Ah, I wasn't aware that this was actually an organization of sorts.
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_potential_movement#Criticism]Good old #Criticism pages.
How surprising that the movement formed in the 60s.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Siam
Bear Cub
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 646
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:34 am Post subject: |
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Hi Daystar;
You said:
I don't know where you get your information, but I look to the Bible.
Siam says:
Oh, yeah that’s right, that’s where you got your info about God and “his” non-omnipresence.
Daystar:
You say you are not an atheist and then you say God is stupid and you completely overlooked any truth regarding Cain?
Siam says:
Nope, I said your variation of God was stupid, (just not in so many words.) and just because you chose to expound upon the Cain myth does not, in any way, mean I “completely” overlooked anything.
I quoted the bible!
Daystar said:
You would rather overlook the truth?
Siam say’s;
I would rather get to the heart of it.
Daystar:
You would rather make believe God is in heaven waiting to have tea with you and you miss the mark.
Siam;
Sheesh…talk about miss the mark, you could not get further from the truth of what I believe. Did you really mean to say this?
Daystar:
It is interesting that you claim the Bible is figurative when you need it to be and literal when you need it to be without very much thought to either. Is that for the sake of argument or belief?
Saim;
Is this the best you can do when I show you, using the bible, that it says that god is indeed omnipresent?
I use the bible as an inner spiritual tool for expanding love, remember love, Jesus (the Christ potential within all) said it was the most important of all the commandments.
Daystar:
I don't get you. You make no real sense. You believe in God but not the God of the Bible.
Saim:
I believe that the God of the bible is an inner aspect of our spiritual selves. Makes more sense than God in Heaven up there some where!
Daystar:
I can't proove my god exists by the remarkable books of the Bible but you can proove your God? Without even being able to really define the word god.
Siam:
God definition: LOVE.
It isn’t all remarkable, there’s a lot of redundant long winded c-r-a-p, screwed history, screwed up Jesus genealogy, mythical madness etc…
Saim wrote:
And what, pray tell, have you got to base your belief on outside of the few select books that made it into the end result of Constantine’s bible.
Daystar
What would I need?
Siam:
Unconditional and ever present love and understanding.
Daystar:
What do you ask for?
Siam:
To see if you do understand that around 360A.D. Constantine bought together numerous books pertaining to a yet unnamed messiah while throwing away a 1000 more, in the hopes of uniting this discordant group of followers into a religion that could be used to control, dumb down, and distort the truth of what they (and Jesus) was saying, that we have the potential to be beings of peace instead of man of war.
And I see Constantine's trap is still working.
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Siam
Bear Cub
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 646
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Hi ya FFT
My quoting ability, as you are well aware of, sucks’ so you’ll have to bare with my method, or send me a DVD showing me in step by step instructions. Yes I am computer inept.
| Siam wrote: | | My argument for humanity evolving in a more loving fashion is based on the potential of the mind. |
Oh no you don't. If you dare trot out the "we only use 10% of our mind's potential!" nonsense ...
So Siam quotes back:
I don’t think I use that much.
However, I understand that if I fill my thoughts with positive ideas and a loving attitude I find within my self a desire to be a better person and not only that but that better people come into my life and through my own choice and attitude, the negative ones leave.
Siam wrote:
From what I know of emotion and emotional gauges within ones psyche, If we choose to view the world from a perspective of a loving vibration, that I believe is inherent within us all, we find that we move into a space occupied by loving thoughts, kindness and peace.
As we reflect this love back to others, they in turn harbor fewer feelings of animosity or negative-ness.
FFT asking:
If. Where did you get the idea? What is it based on?
It's not enough to go "wouldn't it be nice if"
Siam again:
This understanding is reflected in books like “The power of positive thinking.” Etc.
I see no “if” in this belief, its fact. But…and this is a big “But” (I like big buts) it has to be put into practice to see achievable results. You can’t sit back and “poo poo” it until you have tried it.
If you’re not willing to give it a go, it doesn’t matter. Just accept what you have in your life and move on.
Hell; don’t accept it, whinge and whine, be a miserable turkey and see how filling to the brim with love ones life will be with that sort of attitude.
It is on this fact that I choose to come at Christians from. I believe that Jesus (The myth) is actually about our ability to reach for this loving aspect of self that is within all of us.
Siam wrote:
This, as I’m sure you aware, is the back bone of the human potential movement.
FFT wrote:
Ah, I wasn't aware that this was actually an organization of sorts.
How surprising that the movement formed in the 60s.
Siam say’s:
Yeah; it’s much easier to feel the potential on drugs.
From a personal perspective, I want to be around loving people and have found that we draw to us the like of mind. This takes place without church or a belief in “GOD” but it is recognized as a vibration or energy of sorts.
Now you can deny that humans do give off an energy if you like, but I would have to say that anyone who can not feel negative energy in a situation or energy radiating from someone whose intention is less than noble has actually shut down a part of ones innate thinking abilities.
Can it be explained by science. Probably not…
But if "God" is not God, then science definatley is not.
Cheers.
Siam.
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It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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Siam
Bear Cub
Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 646
Location: middle of oz
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| Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Hello FFT. are you out there...hello...hello...
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It's the best that my web provider can do at the moment though it is still not working right! |
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