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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 287
Location: Central Washington State
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 Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Dartman wrote: |
1) How do you get around the fact that Moses stated the 10 commandments were a BRAND NEW COVENANT! |
Please state where that Bible verse is found, OK ?
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I have stated SEVERAL times Deut 5.
Basically the whole chapter applies, but the critical verse is verse 3.
Speaking specifically about the 10 commandments:
Deut 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
SS said:
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Because both the Old Covenant, and the New Covenant are found in the OT. |
I am not sure what you mean here, because there are several covenants in the OT.
Covenants were made with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Israel via Moses, David, there are other, more specific and shorter term covenants, but these are some of the longest lasting.
SS wrote:
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2) How do you get around the fact that the sabbath is never once mentioned as a commandment to be kept in the NT. |
Christians are to follow the example set forth by Jesus Christ..... 1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
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Yes, if you look at the context what Christians are to follow is Christ's willingness to suffer for faith. Not that his example is limited to this, but contextually that is the topic.
Paul wrote in Gal 4:4-5
4 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Notice the past tense here in verse 5....those that WERE under the law. Jesus lived and preached 'under the law' and kept the law THUS fulfilling the law. AND as prophecy stated, FINISHED the law. Then God "took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross". That law is done.
SS wrote:
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Breaking the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath is sin....sin which will result in eternal death (Romans 6:23)
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1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom 4:15 ... for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Even though I have begged you to provide ONE example, you have not produced ONE verse that commands a '7th day Sabbath' in the New Testament. I understand why..... because there isn't one.
Since there isn't that law, there isn't sin regarding a '7th day sabbath'.
Yes the Christian IS under Christ's law:
John 13:34-35 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Matt 28:19 - 20 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Only those commandments Jesus or the Apostles stated are law now. The previous law is 'DONE AWAY'.
SS wrote:
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3) How do you get around the fact that the NT states several times, in several ways that we are free to keep every day alike, meet on the 1st day of the week, are not to be judged in ...sabbath days, to name a few.
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WHY are you trying to separate the OT from the NT ?
IT is ALL God's word, it applies to Christians as examples, to learn from.
The OT contains the Plan of Salvation....as Paul says so.....
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. |
I whole heartedly agree! You are misstating me. I have NEVER said the Old Testament is done or irrelevant.
There is even tremendous value in examining God's laws from the past. Even though many of those laws have changed, God has not. We can learn something about God by seeing what He has commanded, AND what He has CHANGED in previous laws.
What has changed is; the law for Israel has been replaced with a law for the Church. |
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james
Tiger
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 851
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | james wrote: | | I agree and also what entailed keeping the Sabbath commandment was putting to death those who did any work their in, they could not kindle any fire throughout their habitations-(Ex 35:2-3) and they were not to leave their places-(Ex 16:29) |
Let's be clear on one point: Christians don't put to death anyone who don't observe the Sabbath.  |
Ryck,
My point in mentioning this is the whole Sabbath commandment as given in the OT is kept by NO ONE. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | Let's be clear on one point: Christians don't put to death anyone who don't observe the Sabbath. :wink: |
No, God said HE wil do that.....come Judgment Day.
| james wrote: |
Ryck,
My point in mentioning this is the whole Sabbath commandment as given in the OT is kept by NO ONE. |
Exodus 16:23 And he said unto them, This [is that] which the LORD hath said, To morrow [is] the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake [that] which ye will bake [to day], and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.
16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
16:25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day [is] a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, [which is] the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
16:27 And it came to pass, [that] there went out [some] of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
16:28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?
16:29 See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.
16:30 So the people rested on the seventh day.
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5285
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. |
SS, do you leave your place on the 7th day? You know that would break the Sabbath!
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Much Love Nobby
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:52 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: |
SS, do you leave your place on the 7th day? |
Actually No, I usually stay at home on the sabbath day.
However, the church is very near by.
| Quote: | | You know that would break the Sabbath! |
If you know that....do you stay at home also, to avoid disobeying God ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5285
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:08 am Post subject: |
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SS, I'm disabled I stay home most of the time. I would love to be able to get out & work. But my lungs won't allow that! 
Nobby
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Much Love Nobby
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:21 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | SS, I'm disabled I stay home most of the time. I would love to be able to get out & work. But my lungs won't allow that! :D
Nobby |
I remember you telling me some time ago.
However, you have the opportunity to get a new body, filled with energy and freedom of doing things you can't even dream of right now.
The future life.......well.
Let me show you something that motivates me....to want eternal life.
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There, immortal minds will contemplate with never-failing delight the wonders of creative power, the mysteries of redeeming love.
There will be no cruel, deceiving foe to tempt to forgetfulness of God.
Every faculty will be developed, every capacity increased. The acquirement of knowledge will not weary the mind or exhaust the energies.
There the grandest enterprises may be carried forward, the loftiest aspirations reached, the highest ambitions realized; and still there will arise new heights to surmount, new wonders to admire, new truths to comprehend, fresh objects to call forth the powers of mind and soul and body. {GC 677.2}
All the treasures of the universe will be open to the study of God's redeemed. Unfettered by mortality, they wing their tireless flight to worlds afar--worlds that thrilled with sorrow at the spectacle of human woe and rang with songs of gladness at the tidings of a ransomed soul.
With unutterable delight the children of earth enter into the joy and the wisdom of unfallen beings.
They share the treasures of knowledge and understanding gained through ages upon ages in contemplation of God's handiwork.
With undimmed vision they gaze upon the glory of creation--suns and stars and systems, all in their appointed order circling the throne
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of Deity. Upon all things, from the least to the greatest, the Creator's name is written, and in all are the riches of His power displayed. {GC 677.3}
And the years of eternity, as they roll, will bring richer and still more glorious revelations of God and of Christ. As knowledge is progressive, so will love, reverence, and happiness increase.
The more men learn of God, the greater will be their admiration of His character.
As Jesus opens before them the riches of redemption and the amazing achievements in the great controversy with Satan, the hearts of the ransomed thrill with more fervent devotion, and with more rapturous joy they sweep the harps of gold; and ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of voices unite to swell the mighty chorus of praise. {GC 678.1}
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." Revelation 5:13. {GC 678.2}
The great controversy is ended.
Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean.
One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation.
From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space.
From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love. {GC 678.3} |
(GC, by E. White)
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 287
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:15 am Post subject: |
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It looks like another beautiful, crisp, sunny September morning! Got my hot cup of coffee, and the kitchen cleaned up.
Just checking Bible-Discussion.com, before work, to see if the Bold and Brave Silver Surfer has managed to answer ANY of my questions ......
Nope, not yet ..... |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | It looks like another beautiful, crisp, sunny September morning! Got my hot cup of coffee, and the kitchen cleaned up.
Just checking Bible-Discussion.com, before work, to see if the Bold and Brave Silver Surfer has managed to answer ANY of my questions ......
Nope, not yet ..... |
Oh...I've answered some.
You just might not want to accept the Biblical answers, that's all.
The bottom line is that ALL 10 commandments are in heaven, right now (including the 4th commandment).
Jesus Christ's position as High Priest, is comparing people claim that they are Christians, to what the 10 commandments say.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ?
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 287
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Dartman wrote: | It looks like another beautiful, crisp, sunny September morning! Got my hot cup of coffee, and the kitchen cleaned up.
Just checking Bible-Discussion.com, before work, to see if the Bold and Brave Silver Surfer has managed to answer ANY of my questions ......
Nope, not yet ..... |
Oh...I've answered some.
You just might not want to accept the Biblical answers, that's all.
The bottom line is that ALL 10 commandments are in heaven, right now (including the 4th commandment).
Jesus Christ's position as High Priest, is comparing people claim that they are Christians, to what the 10 commandments say.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God ? |
Well....if you think THIS is an 'answer', then I can see how I missed the other 'answers'.
| Quote: | The bottom line is that ALL 10 commandments are in heaven, right now (including the 4th commandment).
Jesus Christ's position as High Priest, is comparing people claim that they are Christians, to what the 10 commandments say.
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This is straight out of the book of Silver Surfer. Why would you just regurgitate unsubstantiated wild claims like this?
Do you REALLY believe this is PURSUASIVE?
At least throw in ONE verse for support.
Please, though, make it on the topic next time, instead of this reference in 1 Peter 4:17. It's a great verse, don't get me wrong, but it will ONLY apply to this topic IF seen through YOUR position. This verse brings absolutely NOTHING of evidence to support your claims, or to refute my claims, therefore has no value in this thread!
It seems like you are admitting defeat.
It seems like you KNOW you can't 'put up' the scriptures to answer my difficult questions, so you tried to just avoid responding, and now your pulling a 'Squid'. Sending out a cloud of shapeless ink, intended to baffle the other party.
The apparent hope is I will quit posting tough questions out of shear disgust at the lack of substance in your reluctant responses. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I think we need to go over the Law of God......and, the Laws of Moses, again.
# 1.) God's Law........spoken by Christ Himself (Exodus 20:1-22).
Law of Moses......spoken by Moses (Exodus 24:3).
# 2.) God's Law....written by Christ Himself ((Exodus 31:18 & 32:16).
Law of Moses....written by Moses himself (Exodus 24:4 & Duet. 31:9).
# 3.) God's Law.....on Stone Tablets (Exodus 31:18).
Law of Moses.....in a 'book' (Exodus 24:4,7 & Duet 31:24).
# 4.) God's Law.....Handed to Moses 'from' Christ, its writer (Ex. 31:18)
Law of Moses......Handed to Levites, 'from' Moses, its writer (Duet. 31:25, 26).
# 5.) GOD's LAW......Moses put God's 10 commandments, 'INSIDE' ...the Ark (Duet. 10:5).
Law of Moses.....the Levite Priests, put the 'book' of Moses' law, on the 'OUTSIDE' of the Ark (Duet. 31:26).
# 6.) God's Law......Deals with 'moral concepts' (Exodus 20:3-17).
Law of Moses.....deals with ceremonial, and ritual matters (Exodus , Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers).
# 7.) God's Law.....Reveals what sin is (for Salvation purposes) ......(Romans 7:7 & 1 John 3:4).
Law of Moses....precribes offerings for sins committed ( Book of Leviticus ).
# 8.) GOD'S LAW........Breaking any one of the 10 commandments is sin, as found in Exodus 20:3-17....... (1 John 3:4).
Law of Moses......No sin is breaking, because now is abolished (Ephesians 2:15)......"where no law is, there is no transgression, Romans 4:15).
# 9.) GOD'S LAW........CHRISTIANS ARE TO KEEP (John 15:10......James 2:10-12......Revelation 14:12.......Ecclesiastes 12:13,14).
Law of Moses.....Apostles gave no command to keep (Acts 15:24).
# 10.) GOD'S LAW......10 Commandments, will be God's standard, on Judgment Day (Eccl. 12:13,14 James 2:10-12).
Law of Moses.....NOT to be Judged by it (Colossians 2:16).
# 11.) God's Law......The Christian is blessed who keeps this Law (James 1:25).
Law of Moses......Christian who keeps this Law is NOT blessed (Galations 5:1-6).
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 287
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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SS, you are trying to invent a distinction the scriptures do not make. The scriptures say;
Deut 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul.
Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the broad place that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which Jehovah had commanded to Israel.
Neh 8:8
8 And they read in the book, in the law of God, distinctly; and they gave the sense, so that they understood the reading.
Neh 8:14
14 And they found written in the law, how that Jehovah had commanded by Moses, that the children of Israel should dwell in booths in the feast of the seventh month;
Neh 9:14
14 and madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them commandments, and statutes, and a law, by Moses thy servant,
Gal 3:18-26
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Yes, only PART of the Mosaic Law was written on the stone tablets, but that was because Israel panicked! The scriptures make no more distinction between those first 10 laws and all the rest of the commandments. The scriptures refer to the entire package as follows:
Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deut 4:5 Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Dartman wrote: | | SS, you are trying to invent a distinction the scriptures do not make. The scriptures say; |
You didn't read the Scripture I provided, did you ?
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Deut 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. |
OK....God did not write the 10 commandments in a book.
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Yes, only PART of the Mosaic Law was written on the stone tablets, but that was because Israel panicked! The scriptures make no more distinction between those first 10 laws and all the rest of the commandments. The scriptures refer to the entire package as follows: |
Deut "....... 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.
5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Christ, as God, ONLY wrote 10 commandments.....and HE wrote No More.
THAT is the distinction between God's Law, and the Law of Moses.
AND, that is one of the reason the 7th day sabbath (4th commandment) is not in the Law of Moses....because Moses ....did not...write it....God did.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Dartman
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 15 Jul 2008
Posts: 287
Location: Central Washington State
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Dartman wrote: | | SS, you are trying to invent a distinction the scriptures do not make. The scriptures say; |
You didn't read the Scripture I provided, did you ?
| Quote: |
Deut 30:10 if thou shalt obey the voice of Jehovah thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law; if thou turn unto Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul. |
OK....God did not write the 10 commandments in a book.
| Quote: |
Yes, only PART of the Mosaic Law was written on the stone tablets, but that was because Israel panicked! The scriptures make no more distinction between those first 10 laws and all the rest of the commandments. The scriptures refer to the entire package as follows: |
Deut "....... 5:17 Thou shalt not kill.
5:18 Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
5:19 Neither shalt thou steal.
5:20 Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
5:21 Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.
5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
Christ, as God, ONLY wrote 10 commandments.....and HE wrote No More.
THAT is the distinction between God's Law, and the Law of Moses.
AND, that is one of the reason the 7th day sabbath (4th commandment) is not in the Law of Moses....because Moses ....did not...write it....God did. |
This is all just repetition. Please see my post on "Why Satan Hates the 7th day so much". |
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JonMarie
Bear
Joined: 18 Feb 2008
Posts: 699
Location: Pa.
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | SS:
Christ, as God, ONLY wrote 10 commandments.....and HE wrote No More. |
Unless you count the commands in the New Testament.
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Does Jesus say... teaching them to observe the 10 commandments?
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Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. |
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