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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2053
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 Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrus wrote: | | It is you who equated the 1st century church with one of today's controlling and abusive religous groups, not me. It's still there for everyone to read. That's actually quite telling. |
You are the one lumping all organizations together, as "authoritarian religious groups". The first century Christians would be among them as they practiced what you condemn.
| TBax wrote: | | Yet they still practiced things that you would consider an "authoritarian religious group". Like disfellowshiping non-repentent wrongdoers. |
Yes, the words are still there for everyone to see. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | Well, and it stands on its own as a testimony of what the Witnesses think the early church was like. |
Yes. Like how we strive to be. 
It is you who is using broad strokes to condemn all organizations.  
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture |
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| Ryck wrote: | | What's next with you? When you make statements I'm supposed to assume you are not being clear on purpose??? |
Ryck,
My apologies if what I wrote was not clear to you. It seemed when I typed it that it would be clear to anyone. Dust seems to have understood. I'm confident others following the thread understood. I did not expect I'd be read by someone with no familiarity with the Witness organization whatsoever.
Ryck, the Witness organization has a whole heirarchy of leadership, much like the Roman Catholic Church with its pope, cardinals, bishops, priests, whatever. Wikipedia, the Watchtower site, and I'm sure a host of other Witness information sites can give you further details on the structure. In this very forum someplace, someone gave a few details on the structure of their leadership hierarchy.
| Ryck wrote: | | First you redirected me to a folder that has zero bearing. So that was a waste of my time. |
my apologies again. If you were looking for the identity of one man, I can see how this might have been thought a waste of time on your part. What I wanted you to see is how the style of leadership that the Witness organization practices, and which unfortunate Witness members find themselves under, operates. That thread is just priceless, and I hope all here go and read it. It encapsulates so well the thinking that the Witness organization works to instill in its unfortunate membership. They discourage independent thought, and even revelation from God. The conclusion of that thread was that independent thought should be discouraged, revelation received by a Witness member should be ignored, and the teachings which come down from the leadership should be adhered to instead. I find it very similar to the way the Catholic Church operated in times past.
| Ryck wrote: | | Then now you turn it around as if it is my fault for taking you verbatim because didn't mean what you said and that I should have understood what you didn't mean. |
My apologies. It is not my intention to "turn it around" or make anyone look foolish. It also was not my intention for that particular word "dictator" to be taken verbatim. Again, I was not aware that someone with no familiarity with the Witness organization would be taking such a keen interest. I expected, given the context of the rest of my post, that it would be understood that the "dictator" of which I spoke was any leadership, be it one man or a governing body, that controls those under their leadership.
Please, do not interpret me as being adversarial or trying to make you look foolish. In fact I want very much for you to understand what I wrote, since you appear to be a diligent student of God's Word. What I wish for you is that you remain free to receive truth from God, that you have others to walk with you to share truth among yourselves and each increase in the knowlege of God, and that you never allow your mind and spirit to be enslaved by a leadership that wants to tell you what to think and believe.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Zathrus
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| Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:48 am Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture |
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I just re-read this thread, and thought something should be brought out more clearly. I also noticed my opening post was probably more, um, zealous than it needed to be. This thread is an offshoot of another thread, and the emotion of that thread probably spilled over here.
My apologies. That only tends to cloud the issue and make the point of the discussion unclear.
This point bears looking at more closely: | Zathrus wrote: | | TBax, you stated that a Witness for Jehovah must be humble and teachable. This defines acceptance of Witness doctrine as a matter of humility. |
A matter of humility, as opposed to a matter of reason, objective thought, and scriptural proof. It is my conviction that belief concerning Biblical things must be formed by reason, independent and objective thought, and based on scriptural proof. And by scriptural proof I don't mean quoting a proof-text. I mean understanding of the principles taught in the Bible.
The idea of making acceptance of teaching a matter of humility is counterproductive to discovering the truth, and to allowing people the freedom of independent thought.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
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| Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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Prov 15:33 The fear of Jehovah is a discipline toward wisdom, and before glory there is humility.
18:12 Before a crash the heart of a man is lofty, and before glory there is humility.
22:4 The result of humility [and] the fear of Jehovah is riches and glory and life.
2 Sam 22:28 And the humble people you will save;
But your eyes are against the haughty ones, [that] you may bring [them] low.
Ps 138:6 For Jehovah is high, and yet the humble one he sees;
But the lofty one he knows only from a distance.
Prov 29:23 The very haughtiness of earthling man will humble him, but he that is humble in spirit will take hold of glory.
James 4:6 However, the undeserved kindness which he gives is greater. Hence it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.”
...
10 Humble yourselves in the eyes of Jehovah, and he will exalt YOU.
Why is indepentant thought exaulted here when it fosters sectarianism??? Remember when Satan told Eve in effect : "you do not have to listen to God, but can make your own decisions in place of God." You want the freedom of independent thought? So did Eve!
Independent thought? 
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
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Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Prov 15:33 The fear of Jehovah is a discipline toward wisdom, and before glory there is humility.
18:12 Before a crash the heart of a man is lofty, and before glory there is humility.
22:4 The result of humility [and] the fear of Jehovah is riches and glory and life.
2 Sam 22:28 And the humble people you will save;
But your eyes are against the haughty ones, [that] you may bring [them] low.
Ps 138:6 For Jehovah is high, and yet the humble one he sees;
But the lofty one he knows only from a distance.
Prov 29:23 The very haughtiness of earthling man will humble him, but he that is humble in spirit will take hold of glory.
James 4:6 However, the undeserved kindness which he gives is greater. Hence it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.”
...
10 Humble yourselves in the eyes of Jehovah, and he will exalt YOU.
Why is indepentant thought exaulted here when it fosters sectarianism??? Remember when Satan told Eve in effect : "you do not have to listen to God, but can make your own decisions in place of God." You want the freedom of independent thought? So did Eve!
Independent thought? |
TBax,
you draw a parallel between Eve's being misled and enticed and thinking independently. I could just as easily draw such a parallel between independent thought and the Bereans who heard the gospel and held what they heard up to the light of scripture.
The verses you quoted only show that God honors humility. No one here disputes that. They do not define pride as thinking independently, nor do they define humility as allowing others to tell one what to think and believe.
Quite the contrary. Allowing others to tell you what to think and believe is not humility, it is allowing yourself to be deceived and misled.
In quoting these verses which do not define pride as thinking independently, you make it clear that you have attached that meaning to the word. Or more likely, I suspect the Witness teaching you have received all your life has conditioned you and all the Witnesses to view pride and independent thought as being synonymous.
You charge independent thought with fostering sectarianism. Yet didn't the founders of the Witness organization think independently of the religious backgrounds which they came from? Actually maybe they didn't since I understand one of them was an Adventist at some point, and certain Witness teachings bear a strong resemblance. But sure enough, another sect was formed, and they're convinced they are the only ones in all the world who are saved.
Independent thought may cause folks to divide. But it doesn't have to, if there is tolerance and true humility. And I am defining humility now as admitting that you don't know everything, and admitting that while you don't agree with your brother, you keep in mind that maybe he's got it right and you don't. Or if he's wrong on one point, he may not be wrong on everything. And you may be wrong on one point too.
The height of arrogance is to think one knows it all. And the height of foolishness is to think one knows it all because of being told what to believe by others.
And while allowing others to tell you what to believe fosters conformity, it is a conformity built on untested ideas. Beliefs are imposed on those being told what to believe, never being examined and held to the light of reason and Truth. I don't see the humility in that, and I clearly see the potential for large groups of people to buy into silly ideas. Your army which must march in step would end up all marching the wrong way.
Real humility, as the Bible uses the word, is putting trust in God, trusting in the person of Jesus Christ for righteousness, not allowing others to tell you what to believe.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I am not going to argue with you. You said "humility is counterproductive to discovering the truth", and I showed scripturaly it is necessary. Me saying people need to be humble and teachable is scriptural. You seem to have altered your meaning of humility. To turn humility into "blind acceptance" seems to be your goal here. That is not warented nor logical, nor what I have been saying.
The Bereans backed up what they were taught with scripture, making sure it was true. In my book that is not independent thought, but exactly what we all need to do, and what I encourage.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Real humility, as the Bible uses the word, is putting trust in God, trusting in the person of Jesus Christ for righteousness, not allowing others to tell you what to believe. |
You mean like Jesus, or the apostles??? God gave some as teachers, yet you believe this is pointless as they are "telling you what to believe" which is wrong ???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
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Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
I am not going to argue with you. You said "humility is counterproductive to discovering the truth", and I showed scripturaly it is necessary. |
That's great. I'm not interested in an argument either.
But you only showed scripturally that humility is necessary to receive glory and honor from God. And no one here denies that. Which of those verses concerned learning spiritual truth? Not that humility doesn't make one more open to spiritual truth. But not by being willing to receive teachings that don't square with the Bible, just because a "spiritual leader" teaches them.
| TBax wrote: | | God gave some as teachers, yet you believe this is pointless as they are "telling you what to believe" which is wrong ??? |
God did not give some as teachers so that they could tell people what to believe. That is an assumption by those who teach in groups such as the Witnesses. Anyone who really teaches Bible truth would not even need to make acceptance of his teaching a matter of humility. Anyone looking for the truth of God would recognize his teaching as being the Truth. His sheep know His voice.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
| Zathrsu wrote: | | But you only showed scripturally that humility is necessary to receive glory and honor from God. And no one here denies that. |
So a quality that we need to please God is counterproductive in learning the truth??? A quality we need to serve God acceptably is the same quality which hinders us from growing in knowledge???
You are twisting humility into meaning "blind acceptance". That is not warented nor logical, nor what I have been saying.
| Zathrus wrote: | | Which of those verses concerned learning spiritual truth? |
Prov 22:4 The result of humility [and] the fear of Jehovah is riches and glory and life.
True knowledge leads to life, and glory, and spiritual riches. 
| Zathrus wrote: | | God did not give some as teachers so that they could tell people what to believe. |
If they do not assist people as to what to believe, what is their purpose, what are they to teach? True teachers will provide the truth, and humble students will be in a position to understand and believe. Haughty students will think they know better and go their own way.
What quality did the Pharisees have that hindered them from accepting the truth Jesus taught???
| Zathrus wrote: | | Anyone looking for the truth of God would recognize his teaching as being the Truth. His sheep know His voice. |
Indeed! And they do.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Dust
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
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Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:31 am Post subject: |
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2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
| TBax wrote: | | If they do not assist people as to what to believe, what is their purpose, what are they to teach? True teachers will provide the truth, and humble students will be in a position to understand and believe. Haughty students will think they know better and go their own way. |
And what of Zathrus' teaching? Are there any who he attempts to teach, who think they know better and continue in their own way?
Isaiah 43:27
Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
There are those who have the gift from the Spirit to be teachers, and then there are those who adopt for themselves the title of teacher.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
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Posts: 2053
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:24 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
| Dust wrote: | 2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
| TBax wrote: | | If they do not assist people as to what to believe, what is their purpose, what are they to teach? True teachers will provide the truth, and humble students will be in a position to understand and believe. Haughty students will think they know better and go their own way. |
And what of Zathrus' teaching? Are there any who he attempts to teach, who think they know better and continue in their own way?
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(Edited to include the scriptures in the quote)
Rejecting false teaching and teachers is not the topic. It is about humility and teachableness. True, we are not to be gullible and follow false teachers, but that is off topic. If you want to participate try to follow the points.
| Zathrus wrote: | | God did not give some as teachers so that they could tell people what to believe. |
Is Zathrus right? Why did God give some as teachers???
What quality did the Pharisees have that hindered them from accepting the truth Jesus taught???
_________________
Agape,
TBax
Last edited by TBax on Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Dust
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | What quality did the Pharisees have that hindered them from accepting the truth Jesus taught??? |
Very interesting that you should ask this question. Tell me if you see the answer in the following passage.
Luke 18:9And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
TBax, can you see a parallel between what is being taught in this passage, and the JW view?
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The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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TBax
King Kong
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| Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Dust,
Instead of changing the subject again and trying to make a point about JW's why do you not simply answer the questions in line with the topic being discussed?
I know the answer to my questions, and Luke 18:9 you quoted shows it as well.
| Zathrus wrote: | | God did not give some as teachers so that they could tell people what to believe. |
Is Zathrus right? Why did God give some as teachers???
What quality did the Pharisees have that hindered them from accepting the truth Jesus taught???
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
| TBax wrote: | | God gave some as teachers, yet you believe this is pointless as they are "telling you what to believe" which is wrong ??? |
God did not give some as teachers so that they could tell people what to believe. That is an assumption by those who teach in groups such as the Witnesses. Anyone who really teaches Bible truth would not even need to make acceptance of his teaching a matter of humility. Anyone looking for the truth of God would recognize his teaching as being the Truth. His sheep know His voice. |
Is there something here you overlooked?
NASB 21
15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You " He said to him, "Tend My lambs."
16 He said to him again a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Shepherd My sheep."
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You " Jesus said to him, "Tend My sheep.
It appears to me that after Jesus cared for his apostles one last time before departing, Jesus wanted someone motivated by love of him to: 'tend his lambs', 'shepherd his sheep', and 'tend his sheep'.
Jesus was not leaving his lambs and sheep to wonder aimlessly on the earth without someone to lovingly care for them. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
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Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | | What quality did the Pharisees have that hindered them from accepting the truth Jesus taught??? |
They thought they knew it all already, and thought they were the only ones who were saved.
The Pharisees knew the scriptures well, and searched them thoroughly. Jesus acknowleged that. But He also told them that the scriptures were what testified of HIm but they would not come to Him so that they might have life. The Pharisees trusted in their doctrines and their teachings about what they thought God required of them, and didn't see Jesus in the scriptures though they read the scripture every day.
Let the reader judge whether the same kind of thing still happens today.
The scribes and Pharisees were also teachers. Another question we should ask is what set their teaching and their methods apart from Jesus'?
John 9:
| Quote: | 13They brought to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind.
14And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.
15Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see.
16Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.
17They say unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, that he hath opened thine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
18But the Jews did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight.
19And they asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? how then doth he now see?
20His parents answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
21But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
22These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
23Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
24Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner.
25He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see.
26Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes?
27He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples?
28Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples.
29We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is.
30The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes.
31Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth.
32Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind.
33If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out.
35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. |
With the Pharisees there was a requirement for conformity in belief. They expected others to accept and believe what they told them to believe. It was a matter of humility. If someone did not agree with the Pharisees, they were bullied and in the end, thrown out of the synagogue.
Notice how the man who had been healed simply reasoned. Logic and common sense told him that Jesus was sent from God and doing the works only God could do.
The Pharisees became angry and hostile because this conflicted with their doctrines. Notice how they began insulting the man, attacking him personally. This attack on a person's character when no other means can be found to disprove what they believe is still seen in religious organizations today which believe they hold strong authority over their adherents and which stress conformity in religious belief.
OTOH, Jesus took the man, a religious outcast, and did not seem the least bit interested in the man's doctrinal beliefs or whether he was keeping all the requirements. He only wanted to know if the man had faith in the Son of God.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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Dust
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| Posted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Is Zathrus right? Why did God give some as teachers???
What quality did the Pharisees have that hindered them from accepting the truth Jesus taught??? |
Well TBax, just from a common sense POV, God gave/gives some as teachers to teach truth....that is, to impart truthful knowledge and instruction. However, when speaking of the various religious teachers in the world, we cannot ignore that some are actually the teachers of lies.....such as the Pharisees. And interestingly enough....the Pharisees taught what they sincerely believed to be the truth.
Personally I do not believe the JW's teach the unadulterated truth. I've discussed with you major reasons why. With that said.....who does teach the unadulterated truth? Well I think this is spiritually and logically discerned. 'Spiritually and logically'....the two must go hand-in-hand in order to avoid being deceived. One without the other can put one in danger of being deceived.
Someone claiming to have been sent by God and dictating what is spiritually correct..... is different than someone who has actually been sent by God and teaches what is spiritually correct.
These are things to think about, not argue against.
_________________
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen. |
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