Rapture

Beserker1129 · Little Guppy Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 30

THe concept of the rapture confuses me a whole lot. Here is the thing that confuses me and I will be very grateful if someone answers me. My question to you is will all the christians in the whole world be taken up by the rapture all at once or will there be some christians left behind after the rapture?

FFT · Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 2:34 pm Post subject:

I think the idea is that "True Christians" get taken up, and everyone else gets to take care of their pets.

NCBornandRaised1 · Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:23 pm Post subject:

The way I've thought of it because of what I've heard others speak to me is that the chruch is raptured in Revelations 4:1. No true christian is left behind. But some people durring the tribulation turn into christians are killed by the Anti-Christ and durring the second ressurection they are ressurected.

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

Beserker, there will be a tremendous surge of evangelism during the seven years tribulation. There will be many new Christians during this time.

golfjack · Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:53 pm Post subject: reply

The 13 year old on this forum has it right about the rapture. Rev. 13:9 tells us that the Spirit and the Church is missing. They are obviously in heaven, while earth is suffering in the tribulation. Compare a voice like a trumpet said, COME UP HERE with other new testament references like I Thess. 4:16, which says For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God. Also compare what is said in 1 Thess to 2 Thess. Apparently the Thessolinians were confused like some are today. The first letter talks about the rapture, and the second letter talks about Jesus Coming back with the saints to reign for a thousand years. There are even old testament books that talk about the rapture and second coming (day of the Lord). I hope this helps.

May God bless, golfjack

FFT · Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 9:00 pm Post subject:

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:22 am Post subject:

Jmj

Greetings! I’m new here, I thought I would reply on this thread to start out.

I understand your confusion about the “rapture” Beserker1129 – it’s a confusing teaching! If you read the “Left Behind” novels, they do a good job of using the idea of the rapture to explain how the End of Times might look. I don’t know what better source to point someone to though – sorry!

The idea that Christians will be “caught up” (1 Thess 4:17 – the word ‘rapture’ comes from the Catholic “Latin Vulgate” translation of the New Testament word… used in this passage as “rapiemur”) before the “tribulation” that will proceed the second coming of Christ is a very new idea.

The “rapture” is certainly not discussed in the Bible in any explicit way. It is pulled from the pages of Scriptures and interpreted (by some) in a very implicit way – but the doctrine of “The Rapture” is not very Biblical in my opinion. And from a historical perspective… there is not a shred of evidence that any Christians believed in “the Rapture” until very recently (19th Century - Darby perhaps? I cannot recall exactly which writer or book the first discussion of the rapture came from, but it was definitely 19th century.) In any case, the “Rapture” is an interesting, though novel, Biblical interpretation! Worthy of looking into and learning more about I suppose… but I wouldn’t take it too seriously.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

golfjack · Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 7:27 am Post subject: reply

Hi Jason, thanks for your input. I am convinced that there will be a rapture or departing (falling away). I don't know how it could be any clearer than what is saiid in 1 Thess. 4:14-17. What Jesus said in Matt. 24 was addressed to the disciples and Jews, which is the birth pains of things to come, and what will happen in the tribulation before Jesus will come (second coming or day of the Lord). We will be taken from the wrath of God, and not through it like some believe. This is true Bible teaching. When Jesus was on earth, there was no Church until Jesus sat at the right hand of the Father. In Acts, you see how the early church started. In the first century and second, with the leadership of Polycarp and Origen, the rapture was believed. In the third century, Augustine did not believe this view, and many of his views were not biblical. Even the Catholic Church has denied them. The late Pope John Paul believed in the rapture. The Catholic church came into being in the fourth century during constantine's reign, and this was forced on people during those times. The rapture concept came into being again around the beginning of the 20th century. A believer is saved by grace through faith, and not by any kind of works after faith. A true believer will not face the wrath of God for purification like many Catholic's believe. Jesus Christ did it all on the cross of calvary, and only did it one time. To believe otherwise is to believe what He did wasn't good enough. This is my input from what I see in the Bible and history.

May God bless, golfjack

JasonB82ABN

Jmj

Holy Cow! Wink

I suppose I shouldn’t be so surprised at your response Golfjack, I was “warned” that there are some Protestants here that can be somewhat uncharitable at times! I shouldn’t assume that you were intentionally trying to be though, so I’ll address your points in light of this. I should tell you that I think you may have missed your mark if your plan was to correct my misunderstanding though – tone and temperament is important when sharing the truth! Wink

In any case, I should admit that I may have used words that were unclear… if you understood them incorrectly, then certainly a good portion of what you said in your post was justified – I can understand your confusion! Please allow me to explain.

When I was referring to the rapture as being un-Biblical… I was referring to the recent hype surrounding the flawed “pre-tribulation” idea of people being caught up before the great tribulation and long before He returns. If what you meant was that people have, throughout history, believed that Christians here on earth (the Church Militant) will be “caught up” or “raptured” (if you prefer) to meet Christ when He returns… you are correct – I did not mean to imply otherwise! Smile

If you are trying to say that this will occur 7 years BEFORE He comes… you are mistaken.

Your references to the early Church fathers Polycarp and Origen – that they believed in the “rapture” are not necessarily unjustified. I own volumes containing the collected writings of the early Church fathers, I do not pull particular writings from any website, and I would (humbly… hopefully Wink

) say that I feel I am fairly familiar with the writings (from the Church) in the first few centuries after Christ. I’m saying this to let you know that I AM familiar with Polycarp and Origen – I also highly recommend that you continue to read the writings from these early Church fathers… (Amazon has several beginners books available – just type “early church fathers!) If you do take on the task of “re-discovering” the early Church… you will notice that there are MANY things that they all believed (very strongly) in – do you believe in these things?

In any case, neither Polycarp, Origen, nor Pope John Paul II (I assume you were referring to the second) believed in the “rapture” if it is the “rapture” of the “Left Behind” books or of Hal Lindsey. Yes, all three believed that the Church will be “raptured” to meet Christ as He is returning to Earth. If you understand this in context you will see the cultural implications of this understanding – when Kings (Davidic Kings for example) returned to their seat (or to the city of their throne) from any journey… their loyal subjects would meet them beyond the city limits to welcome them and return (in great numbers and glorious procession) WITH the King. THIS is what Paul was describing in his letter to the Thessalonians… that our King’s loyal subjects (us) would be “caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air” as He returns (and He will!)

Like I said, the idea that His subjects (Christians) will be “raptured” SEVEN YEARS before (or any great length of time) before His second coming - is certainly unhistorical and un-Biblical. And you cannot produce evidence that PROVES otherwise because it doesn’t exist (that was meant to be a friendly challenge by the way. Wink

) All you can do is put your own (or someone else’s) interpretations on statements or writings from the Scriptures, the early Church, and John Paul II. Having those flawed interpretation doesn’t mean that there are not VERY strong counter arguments, please don’t assume this. I have copies of writings from several noted (more contemporary) Protestant theologians who also strongly disagree with this flawed interpretation of the “rapture.” I am also familiar with some of these false interpretations of the early Church fathers you may have referred to (I’ve only read them online however) – but if you’d like to debate those or any others you’ve found… we can start another thread!

I don’t think it would be helpful to reply to the list of other things you said (most were off topic,) but I will say this… you definitely have a strong misunderstanding of the Church, her history, and what she teaches about our salvation. That’s okay… there’s always time to learn! I’m sure I can learn a lot from you too. I realize that I am new here, but I will pray that you and I get to know each other better through these forums and maybe become friends as well as brothers in Christ!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

golfjack · Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 1:58 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Jason, First of all I am an evangelistic preacher, born again, charismatic, spirit-filled believer. I apologize for being gruff, but this is my personality. I will not appease God's people, and don't wish to love them into hell (not you). If you have ever heard John Hagee preach, I preach kind of like him. As far as the rapture goes, I guess for now, we will have to agree to disagree. But we can talk about our differences of interpretation of the Bible with respect. First of all I will give you my background, and then ask you some questions about the Catholic Church.

I was raised a Catholic, and went to Catholic grade school, high school, and even Catholic University (Creighton Un). Not one time did any of the teachers tell me to read a Bible. They taught me things like Mortal sin, veniel sin, water baptism saves one, Mary had no sin and was assumed up to heaven, purgatory, if one gets divorce, they will not go to heaven and that sin cannot be forgiven, condemnation, praying the rosary, must go to mass on Sunday, transubstantuation, and many other unbiblical things. They never told me how to be saved, just believe in the one true church, whatever that is. When I was 38, I read a tract from a Baptist friend, and finally accepted and confessed with my mouth that Jesus died, was buried and rose again on the third day for the forgiveness of all sins. What a difference this made, and what a relief in the fact I was going to heaven. My life really changed ( quit drinking, smoking, pornagraphy, cussing, and many ungodly things, and I am still progressing in spiritual growth). This is a brief synopsis of my life.

Just a few questions for starters: Do you believe Scott Hahns interpretation of Revelation. Are you a dispensationalist? Do Catholics still believe in Purgatory? Can you give me Biblical suppport that Peter was the first pope? One more very important one: Do you believe like Pope Jerome who I believe said the Church replaces Israel?

By the way, I believe many Catholics are saved, and many are not. This also goes for any other denomination. Again forgive me for being direct and honest.

Have a great day in the Lord, golfjack

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 8:32 pm Post subject:

Jmj

Golfjack – it’s nice to hear back from you! No kidding! Very Happy

I’d like to start off by letting you know that I have a great deal of respect for people who “hear the call” to become preachers of the Word. It’s a blessing… but I know it can be quite a cross to bear! Being a minister… you are always held to a much higher standard than us amongst the laity, because in your role… setting an example is almost as important as what you say! If not more important in many people’s minds! So… please know that I DO have a lot of respect for your vocation. Smile

I can relate to how you feel about… watering things down (so to speak) to make the truth easier for people to hear. I’ve been accused of being harsh when speaking to people before myself! It’s not easy to hear that, so I try to be charitable in my approach. I used to say something like, “If they can’t handle the TRUTH, then it’s not MY problem!” On one occasion… I spoke pretty harshly to a woman who had an abortion and was telling me about her experience and how she came to terms with this sin. She used the words, “But, I talked to God about it… and He’s okay with it… you know?” I flipped out! I was like… “NO HE ISN’T!!!” lol I thought she was implying that God was okay with abortion… and I let her know how wrong that was… but, what she really meant, was that she turned from that sin and was penitent… and she believed she was forgiven. In any case… long story short… I could have definitely handled myself better – she probably thinks all Catholics are mean and judgmental now! I hope not though!

I had a similar background (thank you for your story by the way) to you I guess. But, my parents were pretty “nominal” Catholics. I graduated from a Catholic school… but I don’t think I knew a whole lot about my faith. Just the basics. But, then again… I wasn’t very interested either! Maybe I would have gotten a better “religious” education if I’d put more into it – who knows!

In the interest of keeping this short… I’ll just try to answer your questions.
1) I’m familiar with Scott Hahn, but not with his Revelation interpretation I guess… assuming there was something specific you were referring to? I guess I don't really have an answer for you on this one.
2) My understanding of “dispensationalist” might differ from yours. I don’t have strong opinion on what I DO know of the term though. If you mean… “Do you think that the whole of salvation history can be divided up into specific periods or ‘dispensations?’” – I would probably say… “Sure! Why not? It makes sense.” Beyond that, I guess I would say that some of what people who identify themselves as "dispensationalists" typically believe doesn't sit well with me. But, I know far too little about the subject to give you a good answer - sorry!
3) Yes, the Church still believes in Purgatory – this is not something (like a discipline such as Priestly celibacy or something) that can change. So, if you heard that the Church changed it’s teachings on purgatory, you heard wrong! It cannot change it’s teachings on the existence of purgatory. (Finally a question I can actually give a real answer to! lol)
4) I can demonstrate the Primacy of Peter and his unique role in the Church from Scripture – if you are looking for the word “Pope” in an English translation of the New Testament though, you won’t find it! lol But, so you know… it just means “father” or “papa.” But yes, Peter was the first Pope. His being the first "Bishop of Rome" or "Pope" is better documented in the writings of the early Church, but his special role in that Church (given to him by Christ) is very Biblical.
5) I don’t know enough about what “Pope Jerome” said, or what he meant to comment on. Maybe you could enlighten me? I’d look it up, but today’s been a LONG day! Wink

In any case… if what he was referring to was the New Covenant fulfilling the old (I suppose someone might say “replace” – though I don’t know if those words would be the best) – then I would say “Yes.” I hope I don’t come across as an anti-Semite though! I would have to understand the context and words more fully to give you a better answer though… sorry! I'm not doing very well with this response am I!? Wink

I appreciate the meaning behind your comment that some Catholics might be “saved.” Very Happy

Although you and I have a different understanding of the nature of salvation because of our different traditions – I understand what you mean… so thank you!

In any case, like I said… long day! So, I’m going to end this now. But, I am looking forward to future correspondence with you. Sorry this reply was so long… and that it probably doesn’t belong in this thread… but I don’t know how else to respond. Like I said, I’m pretty new at this.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

golfjack · Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:57 am Post subject: reply

Hi Jason, thanks for the kind words. If you wish we could discuss doctrine in another thread like one on one, but not to debate, as I don't like to debate God's innerant, Holy Spirit Word.

I am really happy to hear that you are against abortion. America has allowed about 40 to 50 million unborn children to be murdered through the courts and constitution, which is unconstitutional. We need to change the hearts and minds of people to stop it. This is why my politics are very conservative. President Bush by nominating conservitive judges will move the court to the right. America better wake up, as the far left liberals are trying their best to kick God out of America. The ACLU is a perfect example. I am also against same-sex marriages and civil unions. The Bible tells me that Christians will be held accountible at the judgement seat of Christ, and this includes their vote. They will go to heaven alright, but their will be many tears that Jesus will wipe away. I see these so called peace advocates crying to get out of Iraq. This would be a very big mistake, as if you think 911 was bad, it will be far more worse with many attacks on our soil. Yes, there are just wars that must be fought when evil takes place in physical manisfitation.

I am trying to make this brief. Therefore from the Word of God why it is important to support Israel. Genisis 12:2-3 tells us that God will bless us if we bless Israel, and iif we don't we will be cursed. We have many liberal churches (apostate, and luke warm) that I don't wish to associate with them. I guess I can't give you the denominations that are like this, but believe me there are many. As far as salvation goes, read my post about the New Birth experience, as this will explain my position with scripture to back it up.

Remember: nothing is impossible with God. We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. We are the head and not the tail. We can be knocked down, but not knocked out. Mark 11:23-24 tells us we can have what we say according to God's Word.

May God bless your socks off, Jack

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:29 pm Post subject:

Jmj

Jack, like you, I am a strong believer in the sanctity of life when it comes to abortion… and other “life-issues” as well. I am not surprised that many self-identified Christians are pro-choice (or pro-death if you will) – but I am always surprised when a “devout” and considerate Christian is – I believe that actions (like abortion) are OBJECTIVELY evil from a Christian point of view. So, when un-catechized Christians support abortion – I usually think it just means they haven’t given enough prayer, thought, and study to the issue. And I’m not surprised… because many people around us (even Christians among us) are very focused on the secular world and not Christ. I AM surprised when a person who I feel has a pretty solid devotion to our Lord has (with prayer, thought, and study) come to the conclusion that abortion is okay! But, this is a rarity in my opinion – and when I come across someone like that… I always doubt the sincerity of their quest to discover the truth and make a decision on those issues.

I tried to figure out how to find the post you referred to… but I couldn’t! Maybe you could provide a link? In any case, I’m going to try to start a new thread (if I can figure THAT out!) where we stay discuss things and not have to worry about deviating from the topic! Here is the link: http://bible-discussion.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?t=2753 I’m pretty much open to discussing anything, but I got the thread started with some specifics for you. Hope to see you there!

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

Beserker1129 · Little Guppy Joined: 03 Nov 2005 Posts: 30

In additon to the topic of te rapture i also found this site if any one is interested http://www.religioustolerance.org/rapture.htm

golfjack · Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:33 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Jason, I was wondering why you didn't answer me on the thread that you gave me? It's on Bible Doctrine

May God bless, golfjack